Welcome to the Rhythm of War Reread, in which we reach what may be the most contentious chapter of the book. This is the one where Alice tries to balance “I sort of understand why so many readers hate Lirin” and “I totally get why Hesina loves and trusts him”—oh, and also “his attitude, while not likable, is very understandable as a human being.” Whee! Should be fun times, eh? Wherever you stand, come on in and join the discussion! Maybe someone will change their mind. You never know; it could happen.
Reminder: we’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Front Matter
Heralds: Vedeledev (Vedel). Edgedancers (Abrasion, Progression). Loving/Healing. Role: Healer
A: Oh, this is such an easy one—and hard at the same time, because I’ll probably miss at least one of the references. Healer: both Lirin and Hesina are healers by profession and practice, plus the whole thing takes place in the Radiant Infirmary. We see Noril, who testifies to the healing effects of following Kaladin’s example. The infirmary has a lot of volunteers who want to help with the Radiants, hoping to contribute to their healing as well as to honor them. We see a ton of loving in a very personal way: Lirin & Hesina’s love for one another; their love for their various family members, each in their own way; love for their people on a broader scale… and I know I’m missing one I’d thought of earlier. Then there’s Abrasion, for the conflict between Lirin & Hesina, and Progression for the way they help and strengthen and encourage one another to grow. What did I miss? because I’m pretty sure I missed something. There aren’t any Edgedancers, right?
Icon: Banner & Spears—Normally this indicates a Kaladin POV, and I’m delighted that they chose to use it for this chapter with his parents.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Hesina
WHEN: 1175.4.10.4—If the 17S timeline is correct, this takes place the day after Navani produces anti-Voidlight, and mere hours before the beginning of the battle. The former makes sense: Raboniel’s scholars need time to come up with functional anti-Stormlight, and then to make enough of it for the purposes of “testing” on the Radiants and their spren. (Murderous wretches.) That means life in the infirmary hasn’t changed yet. Without knowing all the reasoning that the 17S crew placed it where they did, I keep wondering whether this mightn’t have taken place on 4.10.3—mostly because I’d like a little more time for Lirin to have talked with people and changed his mind about the glyph prior to the battle.
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
WHERE: Urithiru, in the Radiant Infirmary a.k.a. the model room
RECAP: Hesina searches the scouting maps for information on her hometown and family. Lirin teases her about her father, but also does his best to reassure her about her family’s safety. They get into an argument over Kaladin, and Hesina pushes Lirin to try to understand why so many people in the tower seek to honor Kaladin.
Chapter Chat – Love, Respect, Trust, and Family Resemblance
A: This whole chapter could be put under Relationships & Romances, of course, but there are Themes here that I want to talk about. As noted in the intro, I find myself seeking a balance between acknowledging the reasons so much of the fandom hates Lirin, my own appreciation for his dilemma, and Hesina’s view of him. Well, let’s get into the discussion and see where we go.
P: And Alice knows I’m not much interested in said balance because I don’t care for Lirin or his attitude towards Kaladin! But let’s see where this interlude goes. Onward!
It seemed the city had given in without too much of a fight, which boded well for local survival rates.
A: Hesina is looking at Windrunner scouting reports on her hometown of Tomat, and I’m amused at this extremely subtle reminder that Lirin has a point: the Fused/singers aren’t determined to kill off humans in general, and a lot more humans survive the invasion if they don’t fight. One can argue whether or not survival is worth it when it means living under the rule of an invading force, but it’s nonetheless true that trying to fight a superior force is likely to get a lot of people killed—including the innocents who have no say in the matter.
P: I won’t argue that Lirin is right in that respect. I will argue that he’s wrong to write off anybody who does fight because they feel that they must, that it’s the right thing to do.
A: Hmm. I don’t think he writes them off… as we’ll discuss later. (Also, it’s so hard not to bring real-world events into this. But we’ll try to avoid that.)
P: I do feel that he thinks that people who fight deserve what they get. And I can’t reconcile that with someone who is supposed to protect.
“Well, we’d probably know if your father died.”…
“And how is that?”
“He’d be haunting me, obviously,” Lirin said. “Living as a shade in the storms, calling for my blood. As I haven’t heard a thing, I must assume the old monster is alive.”
A: Bahahaha! I do love Lirin’s sense of humor. For all that a lot of readers don’t catch it, remarks like this are very much him teasing his wife; whether or not she appreciates the humor in the moment, it’s clear that she (along with their sons, back in the day) understands his sense of humor and know when/when not to take him seriously. As witness the next paragraph.
Buy the Book
The Lost Metal
P: One moderately redeeming factor is his sense of humor. He and Hesina do banter well.
A: The whole family was pretty awesome at banter—at least when they all got along! (Can’t wait to see it again. Chapter 110!)
Hesina rolled up the map and gave her husband a flat glare, which he accepted with a smile and a twinkle to his eye.
A: This and following make it (IMO) clear that this is a perfectly normal kind of exchange for them. They both know the history and the personalities of the conflict between Hesina’s father and her husband (unlike the reader, which drives me nuts!), and it’s kind of a standing joke. In this case, he uses humor to lighten the mood, then reassures her that, from everything they know, her father is most likely okay.
(It’s very like something my husband would do: turn my attention away from my fears by teasing me until I’m irritated at him, and then use reason to help me be more… well, reasonable about it.) It doesn’t entirely work, of course, because the current tensions just aren’t that easily alleviated—and she’s already angry with him about something else.
P: Sure, he has a twinkle in his eye until she really calls him out about Kaladin. Then he buckles down with his attitude.
A: Well, he’s trying to deal with her worries about her parents. For the moment, they aren’t talking about Kaladin. I can’t fault him for this; he really is trying to help with what appears to be her current concern.
“You are thinking that if he lifted a sword,” Hesina said, “he deserved whatever he got.”
And her father would use a sword.… She’d met only one man who dared defy him.
A: While I’m deeply amused at the thought of her father (likely first nahn, but clearly darkeyes if he wouldn’t normally be allowed to own a sword) bullying the local lighteyed citylord (minimum sixth dahn, possibly as high as fourth), there are a couple of more important things here. One, Hesina is accusing Lirin of thinking something that he really isn’t thinking, which is a typical but stupid way to conduct a conversation in which two people disagree. Two, despite her error here, she has a very high regard for her husband, who had the strength of character to defy her father and win.
(Worth noting: I have a ton of respect for Hesina’s wisdom and insight. Her ongoing love and respect for Lirin, even when she vehemently disagrees with him on something, is one of the things that makes me unwilling to condemn him as readily as many fans do. I think she’s being a little … disingenuous here, but I still love her.)
P: I don’t necessarily think she’s wrong to guess what Lirin was thinking about her father, because I personally feel he would be thinking the same exact thing. It’s pretty much what he thinks of soldiers: that they wouldn’t have died if they hadn’t picked up a sword or a spear.
A: Having recently been badly burned in a situation where someone assumed they knew what I was thinking and treated me rather badly based on that assumption, I’m on Lirin’s side here. Don’t tell someone else what they’re thinking; you are not qualified.
P: My head knows that’s right but my heart disagrees, in this particular instance only.
“I’m thinking,” Lirin said, “that my wife needs a supportive husband, not a self-righteous one.”
“And our son?” she asked. “Which version of you does he deserve?”
A: And there’s the actual issue, the core of Hesina’s pain. She’s legitimately concerned about her parents, but every worry is magnified because they are in conflict over Kaladin.
P: Boom! Get him, Hesina! And she’s totally right… Kaladin needs (and deserves!) a supportive father, not a self righteous one.
She hadn’t planned to snap at him, but … well, she supposed she hadn’t forgiven him for driving Kaladin away.
A: Wait a minute. Despite my respect for her in general, she’s being blatantly unfair here. Yes, Lirin yelled at Kaladin and was furious that he’d killed that singer in the infirmary, but Kaladin left on his own. He needed to save Teft as well as himself, and there’s no way he could have done that without leaving. He had zero intention of staying in the infirmary once he knew the Fused had ordered the Radiants to be turned over to their custody. His departure had nothing to do with Lirin’s attitude, and everything to do with finding a hiding place for himself and his friend. And… I’m trying to think of any way Hesina would fail to understand that. So she’s actually being irrational here, probably a combination of the way her husband and her son parted in anger, and Lirin’s earlier pretense that he wouldn’t go help Kaladin unless he could bring him back to the infirmary. Well, I guess no one can be rational all the time.
P: Lirin told Kaladin to go. Twice. Called him a murderer. Called him a monster. I agree with Hesina. Lirin did drive him away.
A: Do you honestly think Kaladin would have stayed at the infirmary if Lirin had been sympathetic? I don’t believe that for a skinny minute. Not only could he not successfully hide himself and Teft in the infirmary, but if he’d stayed he’d have put his family and his entire village in danger by his mere presence. No way Kaladin does that. No way. The only thing he could do, once the soldiers knew they were there, was leave. Lirin’s words meant that he left with unresolved conflict, but there’s no way he could have not left.
P: I mean, of course he wouldn’t have stayed. But I still feel that he felt driven away. He knew he had to protect and hide Teft, but Lirin’s words weren’t helpful at all.
A: To be fair to Hesina, she may believe that Kaladin would have tried to contact them if Lirin hadn’t “driven him away.” She can’t know how impossible that would be, and how much he’d avoid it even if it were possible, because of the danger it would put them in.
“I want you,” she said, “to appreciate your incredible son.”
P: Thank Honor for Hesina, who can see Kaladin’s worth despite the path he’s taken. He is incredible. It’s time Lirin saw it, too.
“He was supposed to be better than this. He was supposed to be better than … than I am.”
“Lirin,” she said softly. “You can’t keep blaming yourself for Tien’s death.”
“Would he be dead if I hadn’t spent all those years defying Roshone? If I hadn’t picked a fight?”
A: And there’s the core of Lirin’s pain. He spent their childhood teaching his sons that there are other, better ways to resist tyranny than just physical violence—and then his own form of resistance ended with petty but incredibly vicious retribution from Roshone. Worse, whatever the emotional pain he himself suffered, the physical punishment was suffered by his sons, who had no part in his decisions. As he sees it, the innocent suffered for his convictions. (Honestly, sometimes one could wish that Lirin had obeyed Roshone’s orders and kept trying to save Rillir. They’d have both died, and… well, as a man with ethics, he couldn’t do that, but who could have held him to blame for obeying his citylord’s command in that culture? Petty tyrants. Ugh.)
But back to the moment, I’m still wondering if this is all there is to it. That thing about “he was supposed to be better than I am”—is that just him feeling responsible for Tien’s death and all those years of Kaladin’s presumed death? I mean… that’s pretty significant, no denying that. I just keep feeling there’s something farther back—something they know, and we don’t. Something that occurred to set Lirin so much at odds with his culture in his antipathy toward physical violence. I doubt we’ll ever know, though.
P: I can understand Lirin’s pain at Tien’s loss. And him feeling the guilt he feels for his years long conflict with Roshone. One thing I wish, though, is that Lirin could see that Kaladin carries guilt for Tien’s death, as well. He went with Tien so he could protect him, but was unable to do so. Lirin and Kaladin are a lot more alike than Lirin cares to admit, I think.
A: Oh, they’re very much alike. I’m pretty sure Hesina sees it—and pretty sure neither of them do. (For that matter, probably everyone that knows them sees it.) I find it’s frequently the case that parent-child conflicts are mostly a matter of “you’re too much alike” in certain ways.
“You’ve healed soldiers before, sending them back out to fight. That’s always been your conviction. Treat anyone, no strings attached, no matter the circumstances.”
A: I grant that this makes one thing clear: Lirin has a different standard for himself and his son than he has for everyone else. Some readers interpret this as Lirin merely wanting to control Kaladin and force him into being the perfect surgeon. As a parent, I’d say it’s less about control, and more about the knowledge of your own failures and your hope for your kids to do better. I might be sad if one of my daughter’s friends flunked out of college, but if it were my daughter, I’d be really upset. You just… naturally care a lot more about your own children (even when they’re adults) than everyone else.
P: My daughter dropped out of college after one semester. I was disappointed because I wanted her to do better than I did. But I set that aside and I supported her in her desire to get a job and get an apartment and make her own way. I supported her because that’s what parents should do. And she eventually went back to school and became a medical lab technician. And then she went back again to pursue another degree… she’s about to earn her Bachelor’s before pursuing her Master’s in Speech and Hearing. She had to be her own person and make her own choices, not do what I decided she needed to do. Just as Kaladin had to be his own person and make his own choices, not do what Lirin decided he needed to do.
A: Well, I’ll address that a little farther down.
“I left everything for you, Lirin. Do you know why?”
“Because you believed in me?”
“Because I loved you. And I still love you.” …
She seized his hand, less a comforting gesture and more a demand that he remain there with her, so they could face this together.
A: Heh. This little exchange points up a key difference between men and women… just sayin’. Men thrive on respect; women thrive on love. Not saying that we don’t all need both, but that’s where we thrive—and consequently what we offer first, as most important to the relationship. I don’t think it’s causing them specific problems, because we see elsewhere that she has great respect for him, and he has deep love for her. It’s just… revealing in the moment. More important, though, I love their understanding that the only way they can deal with this is by facing it together.
P: I love that she wouldn’t let him leave until they’d talked it out some more.
“Your son is a soldier, Lirin. A soldier who inherited his father’s determination, skill, and compassion. You tell me honestly. Who would you rather have out there fighting? Some crazed killer who enjoys it, or the boy you trained to care?… Before you say you don’t want anyone fighting, know that I’ll recognize that as a lie. We both know you’ve admitted that people need to fight sometimes. You simply don’t want it to be your son, despite the fact that he’s probably the best person we could have chosen.”
A: (Lirin and Hesina never met Moash, did they? Ugh. He’s the one you don’t want fighting.)
This kinda goes back to something I’ve said a couple of times in the past. While obviously Lirin trained Kaladin as a surgeon and wanted him to follow that path, the thing that actually hurts is not that he chose a different path, disappointing as that would be. The issue is that he chose (what Lirin sees as) an antithetical one. Had he decided that he didn’t want to be a surgeon and chose to be a woodworker or a potter, Lirin might have complained about wasted potential, but he’d never have gone in for the “he isn’t my son” schtick. He hates knowing his son is killing people—partly because it’s better to save them, and partly because he’s seen the mental/emotional harm that comes to so many soldiers.
P: I just wish that Lirin could see that Kaladin does what he does because he’s driven by his need to protect. To protect his brother, to protect his bridge crew, to protect his friends, to protect those he loves. To protect his people.
A: Again, this comes up later—but it also goes back to what you said before. They’re very alike, and they have the same priority: protecting. They just do it differently, and sometimes it’s hard to see how it’s the same. (Having just gone and reread the end of chapter 110, it’s so nice to know that they will eventually get there…)
The place was busy with humans who wanted to care for the Radiants.… Darkeyes made up the majority of these, but each and every one wore a shash glyph like Kaladin’s painted on their forehead.
A: Let me just interrupt myself here to say how deeply heartwarming this is, even before the conversations happen. The “common inhabitants” of the tower are risking the attention of the Fused in order to do something for the Radiants, and they wear the shash glyph because they’ve heard that Stormblessed still fights, and it gives them hope. Delightfully ironic that these common people are going to be the ones who, in desperation, take up whatever kind of arms they can when the battle comes. They are, indeed, dangerous.
P: It’s really so touching! And they know that they could be punished for it at any time, yet they still do it.
A: It’s quite a beautiful moment. Almost makes me want to smack Lirin for his super-pragmatic evaluation. He’s not in a mental/emotional place where he’s willing to see past the obvious practical side—IMO, he’s subconsciously but determinedly refusing to see anything that’s not “realistic.”
“I see fools,” he said, “refusing to accept the truth. Resisting, when they’ll just get crushed.”
She heard the words he left off: Like I was.
A: This, on the other hand, is heart-breaking. I didn’t quote it earlier, but when Lirin was teasing Hesina and she suggested that her father might have softened, he retorted that stone doesn’t soften with time, it merely grows brittle. I would suggest that, however it may or may not apply to Hesina’s father, it absolutely applies to Lirin. He’s putting up a stony front, but he’s feeling very brittle. Already crushed, in fact, though he tries not to let anyone see it.
P: And here I’m focusing on the fact that he thinks they’re fools for caring about and supporting his son.
A: It’s another twist on that desire to protect—he doesn’t want them to be hurt for doing something that will draw attention without accomplishing anything. What he doesn’t see is why they think it’s worth the risk. I think that’s what Hesina is trying to get him to recognize: they’ve evaluated the risk and decided it’s worth the price.
P: Ugh, my feels hurt.
“Why do you wear that glyph?” Lirin asked.
“To honor Stormblessed, who still fights.” Noril nodded, as if to himself. “I’ll be ready when he calls for me, sir.”
[Insert Lirin explaining why fighting is counterproductive.]
“But sir, do you know why I get up each day? It’s hard sometimes. Coming awake means leaving the nothingness, you know? Remembering the pain. But then I think, ‘Well, he gets up.’”
“You mean Kalaidn?” Lirin asked.
“Yes, sir,” Noril said. “He’s got the emptiness, bad as I do. I can see it in him. We all can. But he gets up anyway. We’re trapped in here, and we all want to do something to help. We can’t, but somehow he can.”
“And you know, I’ve listened to ardents talk. I’ve been poked and prodded. I’ve been stuck in the dark. None of that worked as well as knowing this one thing, sir. He still gets up. He still fights. So I figure … I figure I can too.”
A: ::sobs quietly:: This always gets me.
The truly ironic thing is that Lirin thinks Hesina wants him to acknowledge that Kaladin’s stubborn resistance is doing more good than surgeon’s treatments; that may be true, though I doubt it. IMO, she wants him to realize that his stubborn insistence on caring for the Radiants is exactly the same in kind even if not in appearance. Lirin still gets up every time, still cares for those who need his help, just like he’s always done, and that’s where Kaladin learned it. If Lirin weren’t the kind of man who stubbornly gets up and cares for the people who are his responsibility, Kaladin wouldn’t be that kind of man either. The only difference is that Lirin does it in an infirmary, and Kaladin does it on a battlefield. They’re both protecting.
P: I swear I made my comment above about them being alike before I read your comment here.
But yes, Noril’s words make me tear up, too. Just like it made me ugly cry when Kaladin found him and brought him out of the dark.
A: This is so much what Lirin needs to understand about himself, and the only way he’ll get there is by seeing it in others. People need more than mere survival. They need meaning, hope, encouragement, support, purpose. I think that’s what Hesina hopes to accomplish here: for Lirin to understand how and why Kaladin is an inspiration to these people. He’s been so wrapped up in his own little knot of pain, he’s forgotten that sometimes defying the darkness is what makes life worth living. He’s known it in the past; now he needs to grasp it again.
P: Two thumbs up!
“Don’t challenge them. Don’t argue with them. Simply ask them why they wear that glyph. And see them, Lirin. Please.”
She left him standing there and returned to her maps. Trusting in him, and the man she knew he was.
A: And I’m back in total agreement with her. She knows what kind of man he is better than anyone, including himself. She knows he’ll do what he promised, and she knows that when he lets go of his own pain to see through the eyes of others, he’ll understand both himself and his son better.
Trust.
P: And I’m so cynical when reading this scene because I feel that Lirin won’t appreciate the love and devotion that are shown to Kaladin by their people.
A: Well, first read and all that… but we’ve read the end of the book, and we know that it works. We have a scene coming up (a lot of chapters from now) where Lirin demonstrates that he does understand it, or is at least getting there. As noted in the time-stamp section, I feel like this would be a little more believable with more like a full day to process it. Going from “Ask them why they wear the glyph” to “I want to wear the glyph too” in a matter of a couple of hours seems… unrealistic. In an odd way, it feels unfair to Lirin’s inner conflict to resolve it so quickly.
P: This is definitely different on a first read. I’m just stubborn and Lirin gets under my skin. I need more from him for him to be redeemed in my eyes. But I agree that more time would have been more appropriate.
History, Geography, & Cultures
Sadeas’s was included… It had taken her until now to realize she could check on Tomat.
A: I’m including this mostly because I’m always startled to remember the connections of Kaladin’s family with Sadeas princedom. For what it’s worth, not only is Hearthstone in that territory, so is Tomat, Hesina’s hometown. It’s an essential part of the backstory, but it’s so hard to remember that these people we love are really from Sadeas princedom, not Kholin. It feels so wrong.
The singers had the city wall under repair… That had been broken since … what, her grandfather’s days?
A: Ironic, isn’t it? For all that we’re generally pro-human and anti-Fused/singer, there’s a marked contrast between the cultures that doesn’t exactly reflect well on the humans. While I’m not big on rigid government oversight, people can be so slack about infrastructure. She doesn’t say why no one had fixed the wall, but we can make a lot of guesses. One of them, of course, would be that they felt secure enough in “these civilized times” that they didn’t see a real need for a city wall. One has to wonder… would it have made any difference when the singers came?
P: It likely wouldn’t have made a difference. But I agree that they probably felt there was no need to repair the wall. And you’re right, people don’t care about infrastructure but they really, really should!
He nodded to Hesina and Lirin. Almost a bow. As far as he could go without provoking a reaction from the watching Fused, who didn’t like such signs of respect shown to other humans.
A: I find this… encouraging, I guess. People are doing as much as they can without crossing the line—at least until there’s a good reason to cross it. Small actions like this can have a tremendous positive effect on morale.
P: This is something that bothers me. The fact that the Fused don’t like humans showing respect to one another. They only want respect shown to themselves.
A: Yeah, it’s pretty grating. I suspect it’s true of some Fused more than others; look at Raboniel giving Navani the title Voice of Lights, or Leshwi showing respect to Kaladin, one fighter to another. But Fused like Lezian, and many others, would not want any respect of any level to be shown to a human. I’m glad there are a few (if rare) counterexamples, because as it is, some of the Fused are almost caricatures of arrogance.
Spren & Shadesmar
He’d been studying the large model of Urithiru that was at the back of the infirmary room.
A: Not that anyone needed the reminder, but the final node is in this room with the Radiants, with Kaladin’s parents, with a number of secrets… Several different plot arcs all come together in this room over the course of Part Five.
P: I can’t help but wonder why he was studying it.
A: Me too. I mean… the model is interesting, and all, but was he just looking, or was he looking for something? Trying to figure out where Kaladin might be, based on what Dabbid told them? I wish I knew, but since we’re not told, it’s probably not relevant!
Bruised & Broken
A: Sometimes I can’t help thinking Lirin is also being set up for a Radiant bond. Stormfather knows he’s been bruised and broken by his life experiences. I don’t really think it’s all that likely, but… I won’t be entirely surprised if it happens, either.
P: He’d definitely be an Edgedancer or Truthwatcher.
Brilliant Buttresses
A: I almost included all of Lirin’s “gibes” in this section, because they were needed elsewhere, but I love his sense of humor. Dark and dry. My favorite.
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, and hope to join you there! There are strong feelings about the subject of this chapter, so please be respectful of other opinions. Next week, we’ll be back with Interlude 11, in which young Adin tries hard to be worthy of a spren.
Alice lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband and two kids. She’s having a blast with her daughter home from college for the week. Go Yankees!
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course. She’s super excited that the Yankees have won their first postseason game! Links to her other writing are available in her profile.
Thanks as always, ladies!
This is one of my favorite chapters in RoW. I adore Hesina. I love her wisdom and patience. And sorry, Paige, but I am in total agreement with Alice on Lirin. This chapter really showcased his pain, trauma, and self-blame. Bless Hesina for understanding and loving him even when they don’t agree. Their banter was exactly what I get from my husband, too, Alice. His family does the dry wit, picking on you thing to show love and support. Took my soft Southern sensibilities a bit to get used to that.
And bless Noril! I love all the things he said to Lirin. Had me bawling like a baby.
This is going to be a powderkeg. Ok, while this chapter does explain Lirin’s attitude very well, and the cause of it is shame; there’s still the problem of the way he treats Kaladin. Alice, you say that Kaladin had to leave no matter what when he killed the singer; thing is, calling him a murderer in a time of war, when the singer was threating his sick friend, and essentially his parents, is way to far. The murderer part is what really hurt Kaladin, that look of “this is not my son”. There’s a difference between going “go, it is not safe here, you have to hide” to “Get out of my sight. you have KILLED in MY infirmiry! MY son would never do that!” I think that’s really the straw that broke the camel’s back for everyone when they discuss Lirin. it does not help that he’s still being stubborn, and people are seeing his words, like calling the common folk fools for resisting, as very negative. We know there are Fused who would still hurt the people no matter what they would do. The people have every right to resist.
For me, the straw that broke the camel’s back when it comes to Lirin, was his consideration of giving Kaladin up for execution.
In the remaining books, I hope we get more of the back story of Hesina. Also, I want to see on screen a conversation between Hesina and Kaladin shortly after when he swore the 4th Ideal. I want to see if she notices any changes in Kaladin post 4th Ideal. If there is a change, I think it would be for the positive to Kaladin’s personality.
Maybe it’s the history major in me, but all I see in these scenes in the Tower are the different approaches people in the Netherlands, Denmark, France, Norway, etc had to Nazi occupation. There were some that were like, well, don’t bother them and they won’t bother you and if you do resist, whatever happens is your own fault. (Lirin’s attitude and many citizens of the occupied countries). There were some who joined the Nazis (Quisling and Moash, for example) There were some who went out of their way to try to protect those who were in danger because of ethnic identity, even though the first group of people were not going to be dragged off to be imprisoned and killed unless they acted to protect the second group of people (this describes the dark eyes in the tower wearing the glyphs and the entire country of Denmark)
Heck even the commentary on infrastructure reminded me of the old saw that the trains ran on time and the roads were all repaired when the Nazis were in charge.
@5 Interesting comparison, and I can see it; the only difference here is that there is a God that is actively trying to control things, the singers do have a legitimate grievance than just straight out racial cleansing, and the focus of the war is defintley more class based than racial based. The singers were enslaved and now are free, so they do deserve some type of recompensation, and even land. At the same time, humans have been there for such a long time, that they should get something too. It’s a complicated war.
I am always amazed when an author pulls in a fairly obscure character like Noril, that ends up playing a much larger role to one of the central themes of the book. I am not sure of Branden plans this way in advance, or if he has created a “stable of minor characters” that can be used in this manner.
That being said, I am not sure if there is another character that could have had the same impact as Noril in that interaction with Lirin.
Pre-planning or… I need a guy here and here is the perfect guy to use?
As for Lirin, I get both sides of the argument. But when it comes down to it, I am on the side of him just seeing first hand the physical and emotional trauma of war in the people who come though his clinic. Who would ever want that for their child?
I think Lirin is in a lot of pain over the loss of Tien and the trauma Kaladin has gone through. His nightmares have come to life, he feels he has failed his sons, and unlike one of his patients, he cannot fix the problem. His coping mechanisms (like most people’s) are self-destructive – don’t have to look much further than Teft to see an example.
I am not making excuses for Lirin, but I can also understand how he got to this point.
It is heartbreaking, really.
Another bit of this is we know the Fused will likely try to wipe out humanity. It is certainly a possibility, no matter how docile humans become. I suppose once they kill all the Radients and their Spren the rest of humanity will just be slaves as they made the Singers. What is peace then?
It may have been talked about before in some of the very early chapters, but IMO Roshone got off very lightly for what he did. Alice described his actions as “petty but incredibly vicious” – it was more like “incredibly vicious and downright evil.” Whose idea was it for Roshone and his son to go whitespine hunting? It wasn’t Lirin’s, that’s for sure.
Kaladin returns and all Roshone gets is a punch, after which Kaladin tells himself to do better. The whole history with Roshone is classified as essentially unimportant now that the Desolation is here and there’s more apocalyptic things to worry about. Which may be the case, and Lirin and Hesina now have Oroden. But this shouldn’t whitewash Roshone’s actions. Kaladin and Lirin have suffered years of trauma resulting from the loss of Tien – trauma that exacerbated Kaladin’s depression and prevented him from swearing the Fourth Ideal until the end of the book, trauma that didn’t recede just because he is now a hero figure and a Lighteyes with social standing miles above Roshone.
I don’t know exactly what punishment Roshone should have gotten, but what he did get was a lot less than what he deserved.
10 Yeah, but he still didn’t deserve to get killed by Moash,who is in such a state that he can’t even enjoy his vengeance. He was just randomly killed off. I feel that him losing all of his status and power and basically forced to be a good man is some kind of karma for what he had done. Maybe, if things were over, he would be able to realize what he had done and apologize to Lirin and Kal. but now…he’s just dead, killed by a man who had suffered from his actions; a man who doesn’t even feel anymore. It’s all pitiable really
Unpopular opinion here, I guess, but Lirin totally should feel responsible for what happened to Tien and stop pretending that his younger son was put at risk because of any high-minded ideals or standing up to power for moral reasons. And Hesina should cease being his enabler. They need to aknowledge how much they both failed Tien and Kaladin, admit that they did it due to a combination of ambition and pride, and do better in the future, with Oroden.
Much has been already said about Lirin’s mistreatement of Kaladin, but IMHO his neglect and indifference re: Tien, once it turned out that his younger son couldn’t be a surgeon, is worse. Remember how we never saw the two of them interact, how he had nothing to say to Tien when poor kid got conscripted due to his machinations? No word of support or encouragement or telling him how sorry his parents were for putting him in danger? No, Lirin only had something to say to Kaladin, his intended mini-me, who was trying to protect his younger brother and that was: “How can you do this to me?”. And how Lirin ret-conned Tien in his mind into somebody who would have become his apprentice by the time of RoW – despite the boy having been demonstrably unsuited for and uninterested in being a surgeon while he lived? Because Lirin never had any use for who Tien really was or the talents he really had. And Hesina let her husband get away with all that.
And now with the new information about Hesina’s father, my suspicions that they could have asked him for money for Kaladin’s education and didn’t because of Lirin’s pride were confirmed. So they tried to trap Laral into an arranged marriage that she didn’t want and which was against her interests, to get at her dowry, and when this didn’t work, Lirin forged Wistiow’s will and stole the spheres, all because it would have been too humiliating for him to beg his father-in-law for funds.
I am not saying that Lirin doesn’t have his virtues, because of course he is quite admirable in many ways, but let’s not gloss over his flaws. Or Hesina’s.
Well said @12.
As a person who used to self-destruct, I didn’t assign blame to Lirin at first (or Hesina) but your analysis is spot on.
Hesina’s father is stubborn, eh? It really runs in the family.
Tomat…heh. I keep getting distracted by this place-name that’s one (English) letter off from “Tomato.”
“He’s got the emptiness, bad as I do. I can see it in him. We all can.” Hm. I’ve also had that emptiness, to a degree, but I can’t say I’ve “seen” it in anyone else, though I’ve interacted closely with people who had/have severe depression. I’m not very perceptive about peoples’ less-than-obvious traits.
@12. Agreed.
@10. Roshone was really evil with the jewelers. With Tien though, he had to send one of village kids. Whose family would have been just as upset by his death, we just wouldn’t notice since they aren’t the protagonists. I don’t know if we ever find out what happened to the other draftees?
Beth @1 – Thank you! It’s a lonely position we hold…
Steven @2 and many others – So have none of you ever said something in the heat of the moment that wasn’t exactly the most carefully phrased? Never said something in reaction to stress and shock that hurt someone else’s feelings? Wow. Do you have such incredible self-control, or have you never experienced severe stress and shock? I mean… Lirin was actively trying to calm things down, and Kaladin shook him off and basically threw him out of the room.
NO ONE was thinking very clearly there – up to and including the Regal who was so interested in the reward he’d get for bringing in Stormblessed that he didn’t consider the difficulty of actually doing that. The one thing I’ll grant against Lirin in that scene was that he tried so hard to keep anyone from fighting that he stupidly tried to stop Kaladin from defending himself when the Regal decided to start swinging axes. But I can’t possibly blame him for speaking heatedly given the situation.
Steve @7 – Well said. Lirin has articulated some of that, too. For example: “I know that war is inevitable. I just didn’t want you to have to be a part of it. I’ve seen what it does to men. War flays their souls, and those are wounds I can’t heal.” Who wants that for their son? Or anyone?
Goddess @9 – It’s hard to imagine what would happen if Kaladin hadn’t leveled up just in time, or if they could take out him, Dalinar, and Jasnah. While some of the Fused are clear that they just want to make sure the humans are all third-class residents of the planet, and Odium has very definite plans for them off-world, there are also a large number of Fused who would like nothing better than to destroy all the Radiants and the Nahel-bonding spren. After that, the only humans who would be allowed to live are those who submit to being slaves. Survival, perhaps, but at what price?
Gaz @10 – Yeah, I’m really torn about Roshone. He clearly did far more harm than could be paid with one punch, though in one sense the death of his son might be considered “punishment” for having gotten caught and getting exiled to Hearthstone. If they’d stayed in Kholinar, maybe they wouldn’t have been so stupid as to go whitespine hunting! At the same time, I don’t like the idea of Kaladin coming back and giving him what he deserved, because I don’t want Kaladin to go around “enacting justice” as he sees it; I want him to be better than that. At least Roshone is dead now, so there’s that.
Steven @11 – And that’s another way to look at it.
Isilel @12 – Umm… Lirin does feel responsible for what happened to Tien. “Would he be dead if I hadn’t spent all those years defying Roshone? If I hadn’t picked a fight?” I don’t understand your comments. Are you saying he should never be allowed to let go of the past, and should instead spend his entire remaining life wallowing in guilt? If he’s going to “do better in the future, with Oroden,” I don’t see how that can happen without letting go of the misery of his guilt.
Re: your opinion of Lirin’s treatment of Tien, I don’t believe we have any information to justify that view. The entire thing is told from Kaladin’s viewpoint. We don’t really see much of Tien’s interactions with his parents, either because Kaladin wasn’t there or because they aren’t relevant to the rest of the story. I think that if they had actually been neglectful and indifferent, we would have heard about it, because Kaladin clearly loved Tien and spent plenty of time shielding & protecting him from the attitude of others in the village.
I’m still confused as to how you see any of this as “confirmation” that they could have asked Hesina’s father for money and didn’t because of pride. He may have money, but that’s no guarantee he’d have donated to the cause if only he’d been asked. It’s equally possible that they asked and were refused – particularly if they wanted it for his education as a surgeon. I don’t remember the exact quotation, but there’s a comment somewhere that their family stopped visiting Hesina’s parents at some point while the boys were young; why do you suppose that would be? And why would you think that Hesina’s father would give them money if they asked?
I haven’t seen too many people glossing over Lirin’s flaws… just sayin’. Maybe Hesina’s, though I love her even if I do sometimes disagree with her.
Just a reminder, since Lirin-related conversations tend to tap into some strong emotions, that we should try to keep the discussion focused on the text and agree to disagree when necessary–this is a discussion about books we all care about, but Sanderson’s managed to write some very divisive characters into the mix, and it should be recognized that other people’s opinions are valid, even if you respectfully disagree. Thanks all.
What I enjoy about these books is that the opportunity for redemption and renewal exists, even in difficult relationships where two family members are fundamentally at odds with how to help humanity.
I appreciate how much they have both sacrificed and helped others around them, and that they both have a long way to go when it comes to their mutual character flaw; control.
The link to this article isn’t showing on the Rhythm of War reread page, at least not for me.
I love Hesina. But I found it a bit sad that she feels she gave up everything for love. Maybe too much of her life is being taken up backing up Lirin, making sure he can do what he is driven to do, taking care of the family, all at a loss of herself. She needs to pursue a few things for herself. It’s also a big burden to lay on Lirin in the relationship. Though I do think he needed a reminder that his wife has her own thoughts on matters, and that those thoughts matter.
I was hoping that she had some kickass but haughty scholar women in her family that were the problem. But we appear to have yet another dead mom. And dead grandmother, since Hesina mentions her “grandfather’s time”, not “grandparents’ time”. Maybe she’ll have some sisters or aunts. Families never seem to have many women in them.
I found Lirin’s joke about being potentially haunted by his father-in-law really interesting. Have we had mention the concept of ghosts before? Folklore seems to link the ghosts’ existence to the Storm, and we know that such a thing is in fact possible; part of Tanavast has joined the Storm, and Eshonai did for a brief time.
Can someone clue me in on why it is thought that this interlude takes place the same day as the battle? I have to agree that that seems rushed.
nightheron @19 – If we assume other dates in the timeline to be correct, this day has to be after 4.9.2 and before by 4.10.4. I haven’t found anything else that ties it down. It’s worth noting that the Interlude chapters are notorious for taking place at different times than the main timeline, and in this book even the major timelines are not at all lined up by chapter. For example, the Dalinar/Jasnah arc has chapters sprinkled throughout the book that are taking place weeks earlier, while the Shallan/Adolin arc is mostly later, by comparison to the Urithiru plot. They’re distributed as they are for readability, not to keep the timeline straight, so… it’s really hard to say. I don’t know for sure what the 17S folk used as references, but my bet is that they didn’t have any textual reason for placing it earlier, so they put it on the same day as the other Interludes in this group. Dunno.
Wetlandernw– thank you for the info. I had noticed that about the interludes, and I remember in WoK there was a cut away from the Shallan storyline near the end that lasted for ages, but when it returned to her only a day or two had passed for her.
I actually find that I am much more willing to give Venli grace than Lirin, but that might be because I’m much more sensitive to verbal abuse based trauma. I actually do in some ways see where he is coming from because I fear that were I ever to live through an occupation or war I would be of the ‘keep your head down/keep your family and innocents safe’ type. I am just not sure about what point my own pride about being ruled over could outweigh getting other innocents killed (unless the rulers were already doing so). I suppose I have already been accused of that by some in my circles because I was willing to accept temporary government oversight during the pandemic!
I’m not a pacifist in that I don’t believe all violence is always wrong as an absolute, but I do think I personally would have a LOT of trouble finding ways to justify any kind of violence even when it might be warranted.
However, I can’t imagine ever saying anything like that to my child, especially when it’s clear he is fighting to protect the vulnerable. And this is not about ‘saying something when you are stressed out’ because even if you are stressed, that is no excuse, and only shows what might be in your heart. And just because Kaladin may have left under his own power/will (and had other reasons to leave)…well, that seems to be being overly literal. There was definitely a bond ruptured, there.
That said, I agree it’s unproductive to speculate about his relationship with Tien (or what other options they might have tried for the money) as we just don’t really know all the details from that one scene.
This only appeared in my feed today (Monday). I wonder why.
For driving him away from home in the first place, not recently. At least, that’s how I read it.
This has nothing at all to do with Kaladin’s Fourth Oath, at all, does it?
It’s almost as if they contain the actual spirit of divine hatred or something.
You realize that this is a Brandon Sanderson story, right? Now he will be a Dustbringer.
Wetlandernw @16:
Sure, we are limited by Kal’s PoV – but that’s why what we see or don’t see is particularly significant, IMHO. Sanderson put it there for a reason, presumably. And IIRC we saw Hesina with Tien and certainly had her talking at length about Tien’s future in a city that we now know to be Tomat. We saw Lirin being focussed exclusively on Kal throughout, to the extent that there is not a single scene of him with Tien or talking about Tien. We have the damning “How can you do this to me?!” after the draft and we have the equally damning retcon of Tien into somebody who would have been Lirin’s surgeon apprentice in RoW.
And no, aknowledging his responsibility and not trying to pretend that Tien was targeted because Lirin had nobly stood up to power, rather than because he had committed theft, doesn’t mean that I want him wallowing in guilt. Doing better by Oroden should mean stopping these obsessive attempts to turn his children into mini-mes and live vicariously through them. It is entirely possible that Oroden too wouldn’t be suitable or just wouldn’t want to become a surgeon! Lirin needs to learn to recognize and value his children for who they are and not who he wants them to be. Which ought to start by remembering Tien faithfully.
I don’t remember any mention of Lirin and Hesina visiting her parents – IIRC Kaladin was surprised to learn that they had relatives outside Heartstone. Somebody was sending them supplies during the stand-off with Roshone and presumably was supposed to have received and housed Tien in the future as well, but given the little we learned about him in this chapter, it was unlikely to have been her father. That they didn’t ask her father for money for Kal’s education out of Lirin’s pride is very much a vibe I have, but YMMV.
Re: people who didn’t fight back being relatively fine, that’s a new tactic on the part of the Fused, isn’t? And many of them still fully intend to wipe humans out. While ROdium intended to turn them into his legions of doom and destroy them in his own service. So Lirin was temporarily “in the right” regarding the non-resistance, but for all the wrong reasons anyway.
Nightheron @19:
I hope that Hesina worrying about her father and not anybody else only means that he was the most likely to fight rather than submit, so her mother being alive is still very possible. Whoever supported them during the squabble with Roshone, their MO doesn’t fit what we learned about her father. I hope that Hesina isn’t yet another only child, though, this is getting ridiculous. Though this chapter does suggest that she probably doesn’t have any brothers. I hoped that Hesina’s family would turn up as refugees in Urithiru, but it doesn’t seem likely now, sadly. Maybe she’ll tell Kal something about them? And yes, we do need families with more women, people having bigger and extended families, etc.
Much as I like Hesina, she seems a bit of a doormat where her husband is concerned. We never saw her stand up to him, even when he is in the wrong.
I think Hesina is exerting her influence on her husband in a different and more subtle way, at least here (I am still not sure if I can comfortably say she was negligent in that aspect throughout their marriage). I think she sees both the good in Lirin and Kaladin (and how they are both striving to protect) but at least here she seems fine calling out his blind spots. Maybe she’s just finally had enough at this point.
But I also agree that within the context of the scene as portrayed, Lirin definitely seems way more concerned with losing his apprentice than the potential of losing his other son, but it might also just be what pushed him over the edge.
@1 Beth and @16 Alice.
I too find myself thinking a lot about Lirin in much the same way. As a parent myself, he does come out harsh, but he just wants the best for Kal and Tien, and he does have a lot of guilt for what happened to both. Its hard for a parent at the best of times to teach their children well, and at the worst of times (as in war and occupation?) He gets a bad rap, but I wonder how many of those who give him a bad rap are themselves parents?
Raises hand. I am a parent and that is part of why I am disgusted with Lirin.
We have struggles in our family that for the sake of privacy for both me and my children I will not go into. Big struggles, struggles involving therapy and constant revising of my own parenting/dealing with my own dysfunction (as well as generational issues from my own upbringing). But I still cannot even fathom some of those words ever leaving my lips or even trying to justify them if they did. And trust me, I am very much a below average mom, and I know it, and my kids suffer for it.
After rewriting my post about five times, I’ve decided to simply say this:
As a parent of two boys that are roughly the same ages as Kaladin and Tien, I find myself firmly in the “Lirin is a terrible parent” camp. I can’t imagine ever saying some of the things he has said.
@29 Lisamarie and @30 ThunderCrush,
I do want to clarify i”m not saying he’s a perfect example of parenting, or that he’s not incorrect in what he does, how he does, but I also don’t think he did anything to cross a major line either. He wanted what was best for both Tien and Kaladin, and then during the occupation, he still was worried that Kaladin would end up dead given a warped (in Lirin’s mind) sense of honour…
I think we also need to remember Lirin doesn’t know as much about Kaladin’s state of mind as we do. His perspective is more limited.
Carl @23 – I don’t see that Lirin ever drove Kaladin away from home, though they mostly parted on … less than ideal terms. WoK: Kaladin left to protect Tien, not because Lirin drove him away. OB: Kaladin left Hearthstone to follow the parshmen and find out what they were up to, not because Lirin drove him away. RoW: Kaladin left Hearthstone (leaving his parents on the airship) because he had other responsibilities, not because Lirin drove him away. Kaladin left the infirmary because he needed a place to hide himself and Teft where the Regals/Fused couldn’t find them, and where he wouldn’t be endangering anyone else, not because Lirin drove him away. Yes, they often argued, and notably right before he left in the last case, and I can agree that Lirin’s words were not conducive to parting on good terms. I cannot agree that ever, in any case, Lirin drove Kaladin away from home.
To be fair, Hesina didn’t say that Lirin drove Kaladin away from home. The best interpretation I can find is that she means “away from relationship” in general. I’m not saying I don’t see her point re: Lirin’s part in the rift between the two, but I am saying she doesn’t comprehend the many real reasons Kaladin hasn’t contacted them. I think she just sees the conflict between two of the people she loves most, and in the moment she holds Lirin responsible. She may be incorrectly blaming Lirin for Kaladin’s lack of contact, perhaps interpreting it as “Kaladin doesn’t want anything to do with us now,” which is not at all true. He’s been a) hiding, b) sneaking, c) trying not to endanger his family, and d) badly injured. But she doesn’t know any of that; she just knows she hasn’t heard from him.
Nice point on the correlation to Kaladin’s Fourth Ideal, though! I hadn’t thought about that. Also, Dustbringer. Hah!
Isilel @25 – We’ll have to agree to disagree about Tien.
We do know that Hesina had been in contact with her family while in Hearthstone, though I can’t find the reference about visiting them. (Or maybe not visiting them. I don’t know, since I can’t find it! My memory is sometimes unreliable on these details.) But they did offer support for the family when Roshone was trying to punish them for Rillir’s death, and she mentions letters from them.
Also worth noting – she talks about letters from her family, not her father, so there’s apparently more than just him. I think you’re right that she’s particularly worried about her father in this situation because he’s the one who would endanger himself by fighting back.
I do have to overtly disagree about Hesina being a doormat. There are ways to both disagree and effect change that don’t involve overtly “standing up to” the other person, particularly in public. She doesn’t seem like a person who enjoys confrontation, so she uses more subtle means. Some relationships work better that way.
jer @28 – I’ve often wondered. I know that personally, my attitude toward many characters in fantasy (at least the well-written ones) has changed as my own experience has expanded. There was a time I’d have been equally angry at Lirin, but the more carefully I read him, the more I understand. Same is true of Cadsuane in TWoT; I used to hate her, but once I started reading her more carefully, instead of just reacting from sympathy with Rand, the more I liked her.
jer @31 – Exactly. He’s not perfect (neither am I!) but his errors are consistent with his personality, his convictions, and his love for his children. (I do think we need to recognize Lirin’s own form of PTSD, by the way.) He’s always been a very precise and pragmatic person with a strong sense of right and wrong — which sometimes didn’t have much to do with legal and illegal — that ruled everything he did. At the very core of his being is the belief that it’s wrong to kill. I suspect that I may have a different understanding than most people on this subject, because I grew up in a culture of true conscientious objectors who were actively persecuted for that belief.
LadyRian @32 – SO TRUE. I talked about Hesina not realizing why Kaladin wouldn’t contact them, but the limitations are more extensive than that. We as readers know so much more about his state of mind as well as his circumstances! I think maybe that’s part of why Sanderson included the conversation with Noril; Lirin needed to hear the diagnosis from someone else.